SubEtha Users <users@subethamail.org>
From Nitin Gupta Jan 20, 2010 9:22 PM
Jon, Actually I am not writing a marketing application. My application is like Evite.com in which a user will send out email invites and greetings to his contact list. 10 K emails is the ball park estimate that different users of the app would send out in a day. I actually searched for some of the hosted services but I could not find any such service which provides hosted SMTP service to support this much load. All put an upper limit on the number of emails that can be relayed through them. I do not have much exp with SMTP and that is why I was contemplating the use of solutions like Subetha and James. Yesterday I configured James, but now the real challenge for me is to successfully run this service without getting blocked by popular services like Google, Yahoo etc. Do share what you think on this. Rgds Nitin From: users@subethamail.org [mailto:users@subethamail.org] On Behalf Of Jon Stevens Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 12:47 AM To: users@subethamail.org Subject: Re: Bulk Email Nitin, There are also plenty of 3rd party services which will send mail for you, manage lists of users, bounce backs, etc. Just search around in google. http://www.google.com/search?q=email+marketing Getting this stuff correct is not easy, takes a fair bit of knowledge about how SMTP works (which I get a feeling that you don't really have enough experience with), and will likely take you many months of work to make it correctly. It is far easier (and probably less expensive) to just enlist a 3rd party company to take care of the hard part for you. Think about it this way, if you screw any of this up, you risk alienating yourself, your company and whomever you are sending the 10k emails to. Are you really willing to risk that? jon On Wed, Jan 20, 2010 at 10:47 AM, Jeff Schnitzer <jeff@infohazard.org> wrote: Yes, the entire API is available via hessian. You can externally call any method on any interface in a .i package, and *everything* uses the .i interfaces - web pages, email receiving, etc. Look at the unit tests for examples (which all work against the remote interfaces). You'll want to write a filter that attaches an unsubscribe link to the bottom of each message. Right now you can easily add a link back to your SubEtha instance, but the user will have to go through a login process - possibly clicking "forgot my password". Probably you want instead a one-click link that goes to a page of your own design that directly unsubscribes the user. I don't want to discourage you from using SubEtha, which I think is great, but if I were writing this tool, I'd probably build it "from scratch" instead. Presumably you have your own account database which you would need to synchronize with SubEtha - this would be a pain in the ass. It would be easier to simply send mail with JavaMail, adding a link at the end of each message to a servlet that simply sets the "do not send" flag on the account. You can listen for bounces with SubEthaSMTP - go ahead and take the VERPAddress class out of SubEtha to make it easier. Either way (use SubEtha or build from components) you're probably talking about writing the same amount of code. If you build your own solution you'll end up with a simpler system with less vestigial code since you don't need 75% of what SubEtha does, plus you might be able to build it into your existing codebase instead of running a separate server. I always go for simplicity, but It's your call. Jeff On Wed, Jan 20, 2010 at 5:29 AM, Nitin Gupta <nitingupta183@gmail.com> wrote: > Actually I am generating these emails from the code. Using my application, > user can send out emails to his contact list. > > I definitely would need the unsubscribe feature in my emails as per bulk > email sending guidelines at Google. > > So the question that I have is: Does Subetha mailing list manager provide > the support of an API, whereby I can send the emails to it from my code and > at the same time I benefit from its subscription management features. > > Rgds > Nitin > > -----Original Message----- > From: users@subethamail.org [mailto:users@subethamail.org] On Behalf Of Ian > Eiloart > Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2010 4:12 PM > To: users@subethamail.org > Subject: Re: Bulk Email > > > > --On 18 January 2010 21:48:26 -0800 Jeff Schnitzer <jeff@infohazard.org> > wrote: > >> Are you sending email from code? ?If so, you only need Javamail + an >> MTA like Postfix (James might actually work here too). >> >> SubEtha is a mailing list server - great if you need mailing lists >> that users can subscribe (and unsubscribe) to of their own accord. >> Takes email in and sends it out to many others as appropriate. >> Typically used for hosting discussion lists. > > If he's doing an email campaign, he MUST have a way of handling unsubscribe > results quickly and reliably. Preferably, this should be automatic for a > large campaign. And, once unsubscribed, the system should remember that > preference (it's not good enough to remove someone from the list. > > He'll also want some way of handling bounces. Subetha will give both of > these things, I think. > >> If you need to receive email and process it in some manner other than >> sending it out to a mailing list, you can use the SubEthaSMTP library, >> which was split off from SubEtha. >> >> Jeff >> >> On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 9:26 PM, Nitin Gupta <nitingupta183@gmail.com> >> wrote: >>> Thanks Jeff, >>> >>> As of now our needs are just to send out the emails. In near future, we >>> would also need the mails coming inside our application. >>> >>> I think to support these kinds of loads we definitely to setup our own >>> mail server with some MTA like Sendmail or Postfix. >>> >>> What would you suggest for this? Subetha, James or some other solution. >>> Of course reading the Subetha's home page it seems it is the best fit >>> but all the documentation I read, indicates that this solution can be >>> used for incoming emails. In my case I need to send out the mails. >>> >>> So broadly here is what I need: >>> >>> My APP ----> SMTP Server ?----> MTA -----> Mails going out. >>> >>> >>> Rgds >>> nitin >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: users@subethamail.org [mailto:users@subethamail.org] On Behalf Of >>> Jeff Schnitzer >>> Sent: Tuesday, January 19, 2010 12:26 AM >>> To: users@subethamail.org >>> Subject: Re: Bulk Email >>> >>> Why not just use JavaMail straight-up? ?Doesn't sound like you need >>> SubEtha's list management interface. >>> >>> Keep in mind that SubEtha itself is not an MTA and relies on an >>> external MTA like Postfix to actually deliver mail to individuals. >>> SubEtha will happily push 10k emails out, if that's what you're >>> wondering. >>> >>> Jeff >>> >>> On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 7:09 AM, Nitin Gupta <nitingupta183@gmail.com> >>> wrote: >>>> Hi All. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I am writing a web based application in which one module has the email >>>> campaign support. In this support, users can send out as many as 10K >>> emails >>>> in one session. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I am looking for a SMTP server, either hosted or installable, with >>>> which I can achevie this kind of throughput. Please suggest me what are >>>> the best options available. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> In production, currently I have 1 multi-core CentOS box which already >>>> has Tomcat & MySQL running. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Rgds >>>> >>>> Nitin >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> SubEtha Users mailing list >>>> users@subethamail.org >>>> http://www.subethamail.org/se/list/users >>>> http://www.subethamail.org/se/archive_msg.jsp?msgId=58565 >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> SubEtha Users mailing list >>> users@subethamail.org >>> http://www.subethamail.org/se/list/users >>> http://www.subethamail.org/se/archive_msg.jsp?msgId=58571 >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> SubEtha Users mailing list >>> users@subethamail.org >>> http://www.subethamail.org/se/list/users >>> http://www.subethamail.org/se/archive_msg.jsp?msgId=58601 >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> SubEtha Users mailing list >> users@subethamail.org >> http://www.subethamail.org/se/list/users >> http://www.subethamail.org/se/archive_msg.jsp?msgId=58603 > > > > -- > Ian Eiloart > IT Services, University of Sussex > 01273-873148 x3148 > For new support requests, see http://www.sussex.ac.uk/its/help/ > _______________________________________________ > SubEtha Users mailing list > users@subethamail.org > http://www.subethamail.org/se/list/users > http://www.subethamail.org/se/archive_msg.jsp?msgId=58651 > > _______________________________________________ > SubEtha Users mailing list > users@subethamail.org > http://www.subethamail.org/se/list/users > http://www.subethamail.org/se/archive_msg.jsp?msgId=58653 > _______________________________________________ SubEtha Users mailing list users@subethamail.org http://www.subethamail.org/se/list/users http://www.subethamail.org/se/archive_msg.jsp?msgId=58667
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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Jon,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Actually I am not writing a marketing application. My
application is like Evite.com in which a user will send out email invites and
greetings to his contact list. 10 K emails is the ball park estimate that
different users of the app would send out in a day.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>I actually searched for some of the hosted services but I could
not find any such service which provides hosted SMTP service to support this
much load. All put an upper limit on the number of emails that can be relayed
through them.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>I do not have much exp with SMTP and that is why I was
contemplating the use of solutions like Subetha and James. Yesterday I configured
James, but now the real challenge for me is to successfully run this service
without getting blocked by popular services like Google, Yahoo etc.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Do share what you think on this.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Rgds<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Nitin<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
users@subethamail.org [mailto:users@subethamail.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Jon
Stevens<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, January 21, 2010 12:47 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> users@subethamail.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Bulk Email<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>Nitin,<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal>There are also plenty of 3rd party services which will send
mail for you, manage lists of users, bounce backs, etc. Just search around in
google.<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><a href="http://www.google.com/search?q=email+marketing">http://www.google.com/search?q=email+marketing</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>Getting this stuff correct is not easy, takes a fair bit of
knowledge about how SMTP works (which I get a feeling that you don't really
have enough experience with), and will likely take you many months of work to
make it correctly. It is far easier (and probably less expensive) to just
enlist a 3rd party company to take care of the hard part for you.<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>Think about it this way, if you screw any of this up, you
risk alienating yourself, your company and whomever you are sending the 10k
emails to. Are you really willing to risk that?<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>jon<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>On Wed, Jan 20, 2010 at 10:47 AM, Jeff Schnitzer <<a
href="mailto:jeff@infohazard.org">jeff@infohazard.org</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal>Yes, the entire API is available via hessian. You can
externally call<br>
any method on any interface in a .i package, and *everything* uses the<br>
.i interfaces - web pages, email receiving, etc. Look at the unit<br>
tests for examples (which all work against the remote interfaces).<br>
<br>
You'll want to write a filter that attaches an unsubscribe link to the<br>
bottom of each message. Right now you can easily add a link back to<br>
your SubEtha instance, but the user will have to go through a login<br>
process - possibly clicking "forgot my password". Probably you
want<br>
instead a one-click link that goes to a page of your own design that<br>
directly unsubscribes the user.<br>
<br>
I don't want to discourage you from using SubEtha, which I think is<br>
great, but if I were writing this tool, I'd probably build it "from<br>
scratch" instead. Presumably you have your own account database
which<br>
you would need to synchronize with SubEtha - this would be a pain in<br>
the ass. It would be easier to simply send mail with JavaMail, adding<br>
a link at the end of each message to a servlet that simply sets the<br>
"do not send" flag on the account. You can listen for bounces
with<br>
SubEthaSMTP - go ahead and take the VERPAddress class out of SubEtha<br>
to make it easier.<br>
<br>
Either way (use SubEtha or build from components) you're probably<br>
talking about writing the same amount of code. If you build your own<br>
solution you'll end up with a simpler system with less vestigial code<br>
since you don't need 75% of what SubEtha does, plus you might be able<br>
to build it into your existing codebase instead of running a separate<br>
server. I always go for simplicity, but It's your call.<br>
<br>
Jeff<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><br>
On Wed, Jan 20, 2010 at 5:29 AM, Nitin Gupta <<a
href="mailto:nitingupta183@gmail.com">nitingupta183@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
> Actually I am generating these emails from the code. Using my application,<br>
> user can send out emails to his contact list.<br>
><br>
> I definitely would need the unsubscribe feature in my emails as per bulk<br>
> email sending guidelines at Google.<br>
><br>
> So the question that I have is: Does Subetha mailing list manager provide<br>
> the support of an API, whereby I can send the emails to it from my code
and<br>
> at the same time I benefit from its subscription management features.<br>
><br>
> Rgds<br>
> Nitin<br>
><br>
> -----Original Message-----<br>
> From: <a href="mailto:users@subethamail.org">users@subethamail.org</a>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:users@subethamail.org">users@subethamail.org</a>] On
Behalf Of Ian<br>
> Eiloart<br>
> Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2010 4:12 PM<br>
> To: <a href="mailto:users@subethamail.org">users@subethamail.org</a><br>
> Subject: Re: Bulk Email<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> --On 18 January 2010 21:48:26 -0800 Jeff Schnitzer <<a
href="mailto:jeff@infohazard.org">jeff@infohazard.org</a>><br>
> wrote:<br>
><br>
>> Are you sending email from code? ?If so, you only need Javamail + an<br>
>> MTA like Postfix (James might actually work here too).<br>
>><br>
>> SubEtha is a mailing list server - great if you need mailing lists<br>
>> that users can subscribe (and unsubscribe) to of their own accord.<br>
>> Takes email in and sends it out to many others as appropriate.<br>
>> Typically used for hosting discussion lists.<br>
><br>
> If he's doing an email campaign, he MUST have a way of handling
unsubscribe<br>
> results quickly and reliably. Preferably, this should be automatic for a<br>
> large campaign. And, once unsubscribed, the system should remember that<br>
> preference (it's not good enough to remove someone from the list.<br>
><br>
> He'll also want some way of handling bounces. Subetha will give both of<br>
> these things, I think.<br>
><br>
>> If you need to receive email and process it in some manner other than<br>
>> sending it out to a mailing list, you can use the SubEthaSMTP library,<br>
>> which was split off from SubEtha.<br>
>><br>
>> Jeff<br>
>><br>
>> On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 9:26 PM, Nitin Gupta <<a
href="mailto:nitingupta183@gmail.com">nitingupta183@gmail.com</a>><br>
>> wrote:<br>
>>> Thanks Jeff,<br>
>>><br>
>>> As of now our needs are just to send out the emails. In near
future, we<br>
>>> would also need the mails coming inside our application.<br>
>>><br>
>>> I think to support these kinds of loads we definitely to setup our
own<br>
>>> mail server with some MTA like Sendmail or Postfix.<br>
>>><br>
>>> What would you suggest for this? Subetha, James or some other
solution.<br>
>>> Of course reading the Subetha's home page it seems it is the best
fit<br>
>>> but all the documentation I read, indicates that this solution can
be<br>
>>> used for incoming emails. In my case I need to send out the mails.<br>
>>><br>
>>> So broadly here is what I need:<br>
>>><br>
>>> My APP ----> SMTP Server ?----> MTA -----> Mails going
out.<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> Rgds<br>
>>> nitin<br>
>>><br>
>>> -----Original Message-----<br>
>>> From: <a href="mailto:users@subethamail.org">users@subethamail.org</a>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:users@subethamail.org">users@subethamail.org</a>] On
Behalf Of<br>
>>> Jeff Schnitzer<br>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 19, 2010 12:26 AM<br>
>>> To: <a href="mailto:users@subethamail.org">users@subethamail.org</a><br>
>>> Subject: Re: Bulk Email<br>
>>><br>
>>> Why not just use JavaMail straight-up? ?Doesn't sound like you
need<br>
>>> SubEtha's list management interface.<br>
>>><br>
>>> Keep in mind that SubEtha itself is not an MTA and relies on an<br>
>>> external MTA like Postfix to actually deliver mail to individuals.<br>
>>> SubEtha will happily push 10k emails out, if that's what you're<br>
>>> wondering.<br>
>>><br>
>>> Jeff<br>
>>><br>
>>> On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 7:09 AM, Nitin Gupta <<a
href="mailto:nitingupta183@gmail.com">nitingupta183@gmail.com</a>><br>
>>> wrote:<br>
>>>> Hi All.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> I am writing a web based application in which one module has
the email<br>
>>>> campaign support. In this support, users can send out as many
as 10K<br>
>>> emails<br>
>>>> in one session.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> I am looking for a SMTP server, either hosted or installable,
with<br>
>>>> which I can achevie this kind of throughput. Please suggest me
what are<br>
>>>> the best options available.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> In production, currently I have 1 multi-core CentOS box which
already<br>
>>>> has Tomcat & MySQL running.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> Rgds<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> Nitin<br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> _______________________________________________<br>
>>>> SubEtha Users mailing list<br>
>>>> <a href="mailto:users@subethamail.org">users@subethamail.org</a><br>
>>>> <a href="http://www.subethamail.org/se/list/users"
target="_blank">http://www.subethamail.org/se/list/users</a><br>
>>>> <a
href="http://www.subethamail.org/se/archive_msg.jsp?msgId=58565" target="_blank">http://www.subethamail.org/se/archive_msg.jsp?msgId=58565</a><br>
>>>><br>
>>> _______________________________________________<br>
>>> SubEtha Users mailing list<br>
>>> <a href="mailto:users@subethamail.org">users@subethamail.org</a><br>
>>> <a href="http://www.subethamail.org/se/list/users" target="_blank">http://www.subethamail.org/se/list/users</a><br>
>>> <a href="http://www.subethamail.org/se/archive_msg.jsp?msgId=58571"
target="_blank">http://www.subethamail.org/se/archive_msg.jsp?msgId=58571</a><br>
>>><br>
>>> _______________________________________________<br>
>>> SubEtha Users mailing list<br>
>>> <a href="mailto:users@subethamail.org">users@subethamail.org</a><br>
>>> <a href="http://www.subethamail.org/se/list/users" target="_blank">http://www.subethamail.org/se/list/users</a><br>
>>> <a href="http://www.subethamail.org/se/archive_msg.jsp?msgId=58601"
target="_blank">http://www.subethamail.org/se/archive_msg.jsp?msgId=58601</a><br>
>>><br>
>> _______________________________________________<br>
>> SubEtha Users mailing list<br>
>> <a href="mailto:users@subethamail.org">users@subethamail.org</a><br>
>> <a href="http://www.subethamail.org/se/list/users" target="_blank">http://www.subethamail.org/se/list/users</a><br>
>> <a href="http://www.subethamail.org/se/archive_msg.jsp?msgId=58603"
target="_blank">http://www.subethamail.org/se/archive_msg.jsp?msgId=58603</a><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> --<br>
> Ian Eiloart<br>
> IT Services, University of Sussex<br>
> 01273-873148 x3148<br>
> For new support requests, see <a href="http://www.sussex.ac.uk/its/help/"
target="_blank">http://www.sussex.ac.uk/its/help/</a><br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> SubEtha Users mailing list<br>
> <a href="mailto:users@subethamail.org">users@subethamail.org</a><br>
> <a href="http://www.subethamail.org/se/list/users" target="_blank">http://www.subethamail.org/se/list/users</a><br>
> <a href="http://www.subethamail.org/se/archive_msg.jsp?msgId=58651"
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